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	<title>Comments on: Badness All Around</title>
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	<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/</link>
	<description>Product management and the ugly side of software product development.</description>
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		<title>By: Guest Post: A Journey to the Dark Side - How a Cranky Engineer Became a Product Manager &#124; The Cranky Product Manager</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-2861</link>
		<dc:creator>Guest Post: A Journey to the Dark Side - How a Cranky Engineer Became a Product Manager &#124; The Cranky Product Manager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-2861</guid>
		<description>[...] one is caricatured as female? I can&#8217;t speak for “Offshore.”  Note 4: See recent Cranky PM post on layoffs.  Note 5: I&#8217;m an INTJ (“The Strategist”), see recent Cranky PM Facebook poll on the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] one is caricatured as female? I can&#8217;t speak for “Offshore.”  Note 4: See recent Cranky PM post on layoffs.  Note 5: I&#8217;m an INTJ (“The Strategist”), see recent Cranky PM Facebook poll on the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1441</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 02:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1441</guid>
		<description>Great list but it also depends on your idea of IT vs Development maybe. In general I thought that companies were keen to keep developers / IT in tough times since they are forced to create greater efficiency through technology and thus are able to cut more jobs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great list but it also depends on your idea of IT vs Development maybe. In general I thought that companies were keen to keep developers / IT in tough times since they are forced to create greater efficiency through technology and thus are able to cut more jobs?</p>
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		<title>By: Wholeweal Software Blog</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1440</link>
		<dc:creator>Wholeweal Software Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 01:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1440</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Cranky Project Management...&lt;/strong&gt;

Cranky Project Management...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Cranky Project Management&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Cranky Project Management&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1430</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 17:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1430</guid>
		<description>Related to John&#039;s points and CPM&#039;s reply, I&#039;ve been in a software company where things went south after an ill-executed acquisition alienated all of ProdMgmt and we bailed -- every one of us -- while the company was making deep and regular layoffs across the board, too.

We were managing many new products in the pipeline, evangelizing them within our customer base, the market, and with engineering. Our customers, sales team, and even engineering was excited to see us break out some fresh products because our software company had a long track record of versionitis -- content on releasing one version after another with little innovation.

Almost two years later, the company continues to release incremental versions, even choosing to upgrade both versions of two competing products that were never consolidated after a merger four years ago. The company is hanging on via maintenance revenue, while most of the good people have left (or been laid off), and the parent company lost its window to flip the company profitably.

My point is that getting rid of hard-charging product managers is the death knell for any strategic hope. Coveting back room maintenance engineers is a recipe for status quo infinitum. To keep (and attract) engineering rockstars, you need top-notch, visionary executive management and the product management team to translate the vision into a solid, actionable product plan. Without PM, the vision won&#039;t fly.

The right type of product manager may take take a year or two to get seasoned -- learn the market, the company, and the products, figure out what&#039;s needed, and get the right plan together. But once that PM is committed, if they&#039;re good, they will be invaluable and indispensable. Are all PM&#039;s great? Heck no, and the bad ones weigh the company down and should get the axe if they&#039;re not contributing. But a good one is golden and will be highly specialized and attuned to the needs of the market and the company.

Interestingly and somewhat ironically, an experienced engineering manager should spend a good deal of time hedging his/her bets that any engineer could leave on any given day. Thus, the manager must ensure that cross-training happens and that any departures (both voluntary and involuntary) won&#039;t leave a gaping hole in production and release commitments. So by design, engineers should be much more replaceable than PMs. Likewise, a decent engineer should be ready and able to go from coding office applications to coding web commerce back-ends pretty quickly so that any shifts or downturns in demand make her/him fairly recession-proof.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Related to John&#8217;s points and CPM&#8217;s reply, I&#8217;ve been in a software company where things went south after an ill-executed acquisition alienated all of ProdMgmt and we bailed &#8212; every one of us &#8212; while the company was making deep and regular layoffs across the board, too.</p>
<p>We were managing many new products in the pipeline, evangelizing them within our customer base, the market, and with engineering. Our customers, sales team, and even engineering was excited to see us break out some fresh products because our software company had a long track record of versionitis &#8212; content on releasing one version after another with little innovation.</p>
<p>Almost two years later, the company continues to release incremental versions, even choosing to upgrade both versions of two competing products that were never consolidated after a merger four years ago. The company is hanging on via maintenance revenue, while most of the good people have left (or been laid off), and the parent company lost its window to flip the company profitably.</p>
<p>My point is that getting rid of hard-charging product managers is the death knell for any strategic hope. Coveting back room maintenance engineers is a recipe for status quo infinitum. To keep (and attract) engineering rockstars, you need top-notch, visionary executive management and the product management team to translate the vision into a solid, actionable product plan. Without PM, the vision won&#8217;t fly.</p>
<p>The right type of product manager may take take a year or two to get seasoned &#8212; learn the market, the company, and the products, figure out what&#8217;s needed, and get the right plan together. But once that PM is committed, if they&#8217;re good, they will be invaluable and indispensable. Are all PM&#8217;s great? Heck no, and the bad ones weigh the company down and should get the axe if they&#8217;re not contributing. But a good one is golden and will be highly specialized and attuned to the needs of the market and the company.</p>
<p>Interestingly and somewhat ironically, an experienced engineering manager should spend a good deal of time hedging his/her bets that any engineer could leave on any given day. Thus, the manager must ensure that cross-training happens and that any departures (both voluntary and involuntary) won&#8217;t leave a gaping hole in production and release commitments. So by design, engineers should be much more replaceable than PMs. Likewise, a decent engineer should be ready and able to go from coding office applications to coding web commerce back-ends pretty quickly so that any shifts or downturns in demand make her/him fairly recession-proof.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1367</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 13:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1367</guid>
		<description>CPM,

Wait a second, you mean my arguement has to be *strong* to post here?!?  I agree with your comments and you are right, engineering is also a burden.   But engineering generates code (or hardware or both) and that’s what the company sells.  PM generates nothing saleable the absense of PM does not guarantee failure, thus it becomes vulnerable.  The PM function can be absorbed into engineering under certain circumstances for short periods of time.  I’ve seen it happen first hand.  Moreover, I can think of a couple of large-ish companies that still do not have a PM function.  It isn’t pretty for reasons that are supported with just about everything you blog, but it is possible.  My only point, albeit flimsy, is that when balance sheets go bad, CEOs and CFOs tend not to see the world through PM-colored glasses.  Kind of like pulling the doors, hood and trunk off a car to improve gas mileage.  It still gets from a to b for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CPM,</p>
<p>Wait a second, you mean my arguement has to be *strong* to post here?!?  I agree with your comments and you are right, engineering is also a burden.   But engineering generates code (or hardware or both) and that’s what the company sells.  PM generates nothing saleable the absense of PM does not guarantee failure, thus it becomes vulnerable.  The PM function can be absorbed into engineering under certain circumstances for short periods of time.  I’ve seen it happen first hand.  Moreover, I can think of a couple of large-ish companies that still do not have a PM function.  It isn’t pretty for reasons that are supported with just about everything you blog, but it is possible.  My only point, albeit flimsy, is that when balance sheets go bad, CEOs and CFOs tend not to see the world through PM-colored glasses.  Kind of like pulling the doors, hood and trunk off a car to improve gas mileage.  It still gets from a to b for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: The Cranky Product Manager</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1366</link>
		<dc:creator>The Cranky Product Manager</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1366</guid>
		<description>Joh, the Cranky Product Manager understands how SALES contributes to the bottom line.  But she doesn&#039;t get your argument that Engineering contributes but Product Mgmt doesn&#039;t - both functions are primarily concerned with building the right product. You could argue _neither_ contributes to the bottom line because R&amp;D is an expense, not revenue, on the income statement. 

And you could argue that both _do_ contribute because, after all, you need a product to sell to make money, but it would seem that BOTH PM and Engineering are needed for that, lest you build the wrong product which would then contribute nothing to revenue and be a big drain on profitability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joh, the Cranky Product Manager understands how SALES contributes to the bottom line.  But she doesn&#8217;t get your argument that Engineering contributes but Product Mgmt doesn&#8217;t &#8211; both functions are primarily concerned with building the right product. You could argue _neither_ contributes to the bottom line because R&#038;D is an expense, not revenue, on the income statement. </p>
<p>And you could argue that both _do_ contribute because, after all, you need a product to sell to make money, but it would seem that BOTH PM and Engineering are needed for that, lest you build the wrong product which would then contribute nothing to revenue and be a big drain on profitability.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1326</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:15:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1326</guid>
		<description>I think when the numbers are off for whatever reason, CEO&#039;s have to look at resources as they fit on a balance sheet.  There are those that contribute to the bottom line (sales, engineering) and those that are a burden to it(marketing, product management).  It&#039;s sadly that simple.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think when the numbers are off for whatever reason, CEO&#8217;s have to look at resources as they fit on a balance sheet.  There are those that contribute to the bottom line (sales, engineering) and those that are a burden to it(marketing, product management).  It&#8217;s sadly that simple.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2008-11-19 (Jarrett House North)</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1310</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2008-11-19 (Jarrett House North)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1310</guid>
		<description>[...] Badness All Around &#124; The Cranky Product Manager Sobering look at the relative priority of product management on the chopping block come layoff time. I&#039;m not up for a RIF, I just thought it was interesting. (tags: productmanagement) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Badness All Around | The Cranky Product Manager Sobering look at the relative priority of product management on the chopping block come layoff time. I&#39;m not up for a RIF, I just thought it was interesting. (tags: productmanagement) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1300</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1300</guid>
		<description>Brent your second paragraph re the decline of sales and depending upon existing customers really hit home.  I was affected by a RIF 2 weeks ago.  They eliminated about 20% of the US operation (small group compared to overseas) or about 18 people.  50% of the PM/PMM team was let go leaving only the junior people.  All Seniors let go.  Quite a few cuts in Sales/SE team as well.  I think what Brent outlined could be a philosophy that my company used in it&#039;s decision on which depts took the hit.  If you&#039;re just depending on selling into existing customers with existing technology you&#039;re not planning on wowing with new innovation.  You also wouldn&#039;t need much sales staff to reach out to new customers and markets.

FWIW - R&amp;D didn&#039;t get hit at all.  Doc is part of R&amp;D.  Both offshore. Neither Finance, HR, nor IT though HR &amp; IT are both bare bones.  They just hired a new CFO a month ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent your second paragraph re the decline of sales and depending upon existing customers really hit home.  I was affected by a RIF 2 weeks ago.  They eliminated about 20% of the US operation (small group compared to overseas) or about 18 people.  50% of the PM/PMM team was let go leaving only the junior people.  All Seniors let go.  Quite a few cuts in Sales/SE team as well.  I think what Brent outlined could be a philosophy that my company used in it&#8217;s decision on which depts took the hit.  If you&#8217;re just depending on selling into existing customers with existing technology you&#8217;re not planning on wowing with new innovation.  You also wouldn&#8217;t need much sales staff to reach out to new customers and markets.</p>
<p>FWIW &#8211; R&amp;D didn&#8217;t get hit at all.  Doc is part of R&amp;D.  Both offshore. Neither Finance, HR, nor IT though HR &amp; IT are both bare bones.  They just hired a new CFO a month ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://crankypm.com/2008/11/badness-all-around/comment-page-1/#comment-1299</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankypm.com/?p=708#comment-1299</guid>
		<description>I gotcha, CPM, though I have seen PM budget be pulled from different &quot;buckets&quot;. There&#039;s also the &quot;everyone must suffer&quot; kind of thinking that says every department must take a hit, regardless of size. Unfortunately, one headcount is a much greater % of PM than it is of dev and we are often affected (IMO) to an inappropriate degree. So few CEOs grasp what truly effective PM can get them....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gotcha, CPM, though I have seen PM budget be pulled from different &#8220;buckets&#8221;. There&#8217;s also the &#8220;everyone must suffer&#8221; kind of thinking that says every department must take a hit, regardless of size. Unfortunately, one headcount is a much greater % of PM than it is of dev and we are often affected (IMO) to an inappropriate degree. So few CEOs grasp what truly effective PM can get them&#8230;.</p>
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