Yeah, yeah, the Cranky Product Manager is wicked delinquent in posting Part 3 by the Cranky Marketer.
You remember the Cranky Marketer, don’t you? That dude/dudette who thinks that in general Marketing is too busy with tactical crap to learn about and understand the customer, and that therefore Marketing’s failure to do its own job is somehow Product Management’s fault? (See Part 1, and Part 2, and the Cranky Product Manager’s response here).
Boy, that Cranky Product Marketer pissed the Cranky Product Manager off. Especially when she read Part 3, which she now posts here. Once you read it, you will see why it cheezed off the CPM so much – enough that she could not bring herself to post it for several months.
But perhaps the intervening months have made her wiser. The Cranky Product Manager realizes that there is indeed something for us product managers to learn from this post from the Cranky Marketer, despite its thesis that there are basically no decent product managers out there, and despite its strong resemblance to another blog’s post on this very topic.
The Problem with Product Management, by the Cranky Marketer
(Part 3 in a series – see part 1 and part 2 here)
If there is one group that should actually work well with Marketing, you’d think it would be Product Management. C’mon folks! Product Management was created from Marketing’s very womb. But perhaps, like Shakespeare’s MacDuff, it was from that womb untimely ripped.
Perhaps Product Management has some sort of reverse Oedipus complex with Marketing, or the problem is simply a transference issue related to the nasty aspects of the Development-Product Management relationship. Regardless, there’s way too much friction between Product Management and Marketing.
To paraphrase a recent post by the Cranky PM:
Product Management Community, WTF is wrong with you?
Why was it that in all my years as a Product Manager I never noticed that the Product Management community is filled with such a wide array of bizarre characters and arrogant jerks?
Let’s do a little segmentation. Let’s create the Product Manager Magic Quadrant. And trust me, this is one Magic Quadrant that’s sorely needed.
Gartner, you’re on notice. If you start using this in any way, I’ll sue your ass off.
And Forrester, if you put this into a “Wave” and repurpose it, make sure you send me a fat royalty check. I have a soft spot for you Forrester because you actually have analysts who cover things like Marketing and Product Management. Way to go! And I promise not to sue you as long as the royalty check is big enough to let me take my family on a nice vacation away from my coworkers. I need that vacation real bad.
So, like all Magic Quadrants, this one has two axes.
The horizontal axis represents level of knowledge of the Product Manager. This is a combination of the PMs ability to understand market problems, customer needs, technology trends, and of course, their own product at a reasonable level of detail.
Note: very few PMs have deep knowledge in all areas, though many think they do, so very few PMs will be on the far right of this quadrant.
The vertical axis represents the ability of the Product Manager to effectively work across teams, This means that as the product or release is being developed, the rest of the company is kept informed and updated of progress, issues and opportunities so as to maximize revenue potential and minimize lag and wasted efforts. And of course, on this axis, there is a slight bias to how well they work with Marketing. Hey, it’s my Quadrant, I’ll define it how I want to.
Note: a lot of PMs think they’re the ultimate cross-functional leader, but guess again. Every PMs will claim they’re easy to work with and keep everyone else up in sync. How could they answer otherwise? But the reality is this is not the case so a lot of PMs will not score at the top of this axis.
I’m sure you would agree, knowledge and ability to work across teams are two VERY important traits for product managers to have. So here’s what the Product Manager Magic Quadrant looks like.
|
(high) Ability (low) |
TenderfootsGreat people skills and usually very kind and decent overall, but unfortunately have no business being in Product Management as they can’t assimilate market facts and drive product direction. Far too many PMs reside in this quadrant |
AngelsSaid to exist but rarely seen. May be mythical beings. Have deep understanding of market issues, customer needs and competitor weaknesses. Are proactive in creating and conveying information across the enterprise. Truly understand that success is a team effort and take pride in helping other teams succeed. |
MisfitsHave little knowledge of anything aside from their own opinions, and don’t even know how to convey those clearly. Think a cross-functional meeting is one where they ask everyone else what they did last week. How do these people ever get hired? |
AssholesSpend a lot of time reading analyst reports, attending conferences and talking to customers and prospects. Very eloquent when speaking with C-level executives. But will badmouth you endlessly when you’re not in the room and will throw a hissy-fit if you challenge them on anything they say. |
|
|
(low) Level of Knowledge and Understanding (high) |
||
As you can see from this Magic Quadrant, the pickings are slim with the vast majority of PMs either too unskilled or too arrogant to be helpful. The knowledge that Marketing needs about the product, product direction, strategy, capabilities, differentiators etc. is very hard to come by, with Angels being the ones who can convey it with any credibility and without extracting a severe price for that information.
With Assholes, the information has to be painfully extracted, and in most cases, abuse is heaped on the Marketer by the Asshole.
And of course, with the Misfits and Tenderfoots (Tenderfeet?), there isn’t a lot of information to actually extract, so what’s a Marketer to do?
Product Management is an important role and those of us who depend on Product Management to help enable us to do our jobs better struggle because a key piece of the chain is weak or missing altogether. As I said in my first post, it’s very difficult for Marketing to be the product and customer expert given all the other things we have to do in our job.
As Product Managers, ask yourselves how much thought, energy and time you spent researching needs for your most recent major release? How many discussions did you have amongst yourselves and the Engineering teams on architecture changes to make the product better? In how many internal conversations did you spend time debating competitive and technology issues before you came to agreement of what would and what wouldn’t be in that release and how it would be implemented and exposed to customers?
Now ask yourself, how much time was spent helping Marketing understand all those decisions you made, why you made them, the background information behind the key decisions, the alternatives you did and didn’t consider, the way the competitors do or don’t address the same problem sets etc.
I’m sure the ratio of time spent with Marketing is only a tiny fraction of the time you spent amongst yourselves and with Engineering. And then you wonder why Marketing “doesn’t get it”, or why Marketing “dilutes the message” or why Marketing “focuses on the wrong things”.
You didn’t gain your deep insight based on a 90 minute Powerpoint webinar, so why do you expect Marketing to be any better?
You want Marketing to gain a deep understanding of all the hard work you did over the last 6-12 months so as not to dilute the message etc.? Then don’t think we’re dumb or dumb things down for us.
Give us the facts, early and often. Give us time to think about the issues, ask questions, debate amongst ourselves and engage back with you. Try it. You’ll be amazed at how great it can work!
Or just continue to be Tenderfoots, Misfits and Assholes and be happy in knowing that the greatest barrier to maximum success of your product is you.
Also in The Cranky Marketer Goes Off
- Guest Post: The Cranky Marketer Goes Off (Part 1)
- Guest Post: The Cranky Marketer Goes Off – Part Deux
- The Cranky Product Manager bitchslaps the Cranky Marketer
- Guest Post: The Cranky Marketer Part 3 – The Problem with Product Management
{ 32 comments… read them below or add one }
Wow, just wow. I am actually glad that I am the PMM as well as the PM. If the Cranky Marketer worked in my shop with that shitty attitude of entitlement and self worth, he/she would have been run out on a rail.
I suspect that the Cranky Marketer expects to sit in their office and have people walk in and give them the information that they desire.
I totally understand why this really pissed off the CPM, and why she couldn’t bring herself to post it.
When I think back on the Angel’s I’ve worked with (and they are rare), it seems they usually migrated to PM from professional services or technical sales (this is for enterprise-type software.) Very deep knowledge of product, customer needs and buying process, plus the wisdom gained from surviving “support after the sale”, that is, what’s really important for a successful release. AND they developed people skills, sales skills, and poise under pressure. Not a programmer, but technical. Now that I’m in consumer/SMB/SaaS market where we don’t have this career path, it’s harder to find people with this depth/breadth of experience. Personally, I migrated from PMM to PM and worked as a consultant for 5 years — still working on the technical depth.
New Cranky Blog Post! “Guest Post: The Cranky Marketer Part 3 – The Problem with Product Management” – http://bit.ly/GA2Fp
Bcz #prodmgmt can’t be blind to our own failings: RT @crankypm: “Guest Post: Cranky Marketer Pt 3 – Problem w/Prod Mgmt” http://bit.ly/GA2Fp
YEEEECHHSSS!! Yet another why-aren’t-you-helping-me-enough whine-fest!!! CPM – you coulda held onto this post for another few months (like 500). I guess it’s hard to write a cohesive and generally-applicable analysis of the real issues between marketing and pm, given that there is so much variation in the definitions of these functions from company to company – but this post is a very thinly-veiled marketing tantrum and cranky marketer needs to get down off the “axis” and start thinking a little more big-picture.
In my experience, PM spends no less time shovelling shii….uhh on tactical work – and it’s a job who’s most critical KPI is not whether we are able to expediently and politely answer people’s product questions.
Anyway let’s face it – Product managers don’t really need to give a hoot what marketing thinks – I’d be way more interested in cranky sales guy’s rant…
Guest Post: The Cranky Marketer Part 3 – The Problem with Product … http://bit.ly/kb84H
This kind of makes me mad too. I understand where marketing is coming from of course. You know, in theory it sounds great, that PM would help marketing understand all the details so that they could do their jobs fully, accurately and correctly. Sure, why not. The funny thing is, that the majority of time, when PM invites marketing to meetings to discuss these topics, or core team meetings to be involved in the decision process, they either don’t show up claiming “too busy” or thumb around on the blackberry competely uninterested. So it is either have the cake or eat it. But you can’t complain when you don’t pick up the fork. (OK, so my analogy needs work, maybe my marketing person can help me; after I explain to them what a fork is)
@Howard-Great observations. The Cranky Marketer seems to want people to bring them, on a silver platter, all the information they might need. Guess what, nobody spoon feeds the PM, they have to get out of their chair, and GO TALK to engineering, operations, sales, and senior management to put together their knowledge base.
Marketing whining.
I guess it all boils down to where the PMM comes from. In a past life (disclaimer, I work in hardware, where to be successful you need to know things like physics, electrical engineering, and Maxwell’s equations) PM’s that were successful came almost 100% from the ranks of the field support applications persons. These were often PhD level folks that showed a bent to talk to customers (i.e. they were not typical PhD’s) and spent a lot of time in the trenches. They could move in and IF they could demonstrate the ability to build consensus and lead a team trhough peer influence, they were successful (alas, many PhD types have hero ego mentalities, and don’t like to work hard.)
The worst PM’s are convenient PM’s. Good engineers who want to move into a more marketing role. With few exceptions, they fail miserably. The principal reason is their inability to accept that there is no shades of grey in the spectrum (it is either white or it is black).
In my 12 years of PM experience, I see 95% that are categorized as misfits or angels. Very few assholes, at least in instrumentation, last more than a few months (one notable exception in my experience), and tenderfoot’s usually self select them out of the role.
It is also telling that the Cranky Marketer is more worried about the big market research boys stealing his/her 4 quadrant model. Sheesh, get over yourself.
This concerns me a lot these days as we are about to embark on a search for a PMM, and this glimpse into the psyche of the CM tells me a lot of who NOT to be looking for.
As a last comment, if the Cranky Market reads this, I invite you to click on my link. It is there for you…
OK, I have to level with you (full disclosure, I am a product marketer). I have been invited to product “rollout” calls by PMs where nothing is written down, there is no business case or market definition document to share, no other information available to the “team” who is supposed to execute the go-to-market strategy. The first calls starts off with “we are launching a product, and marketing when can you have the slick ready and the naming finalized”? Then myself and other attendees (support, training, legal, etc) start to ask questions, and THEN AND ONLY THEN is information meted out in careful measure. Such important topics are: who is going to sell it, what is the ideal market, who are the competitors, what are the key value props for this shiny new toy. I have to take mad notes on my steno pad, usually incomplete based on the haphazard way things are presented on the call, and use this as my background for knowing anything about the product. If I miss a call (which I try not to do) I might miss the most important information needed to write some communication or develop some kind of sales training tool. I guess I deal with mostly folks in the lower end of the quadrant, both left and right, but I’m not a whiner! In fact, to deal with this constant inconsistency, I’ve created the first artifacts in our team to share information within the organization. I am taking it upon myself to create the basic marketing plan, get the PM to sign off on the product information and strategies I’ve developed in it (sales strategy, product mix strategy, features/benefits, value props, etc), and then distribute it to the rest of the rollout team so we speak a common language. This has helped quite a bit. But I’ve seen this movie in more than one company, with more than one PM. There are alot of PM wannabees out there, not all of them as stellar as the CPM truly is in my estimation. May there be more Angels in PM to save cranky product marketers like me from backing misfit PMs into doing their job!
As a product manager who has worked with product marketers and marcom people, it always come down to “how easy is it to transfer knowledge to the next step in the chain”. It’s true that PM’s spend a lot of time becoming the market experts in their field, and sometimes we just shake our heads on “how come they just can’t get it” when explaining all the details of the next product launch or new product offering. You need a clean, simple way to convey knowledge, you need to align members early and often, and ultimately you need a team that is willing to work together on important matters. Every time someone is “too busy” they are really saying “I’m working on something more important.” Really? What is more important than alignment, to ensure everyone is prepped, ramped up and ready to roll (and sadly, pulling their own weight).
Funny! RT @crankypm "Guest Post: The Cranky Marketer Part 3 – The Problem with Product Management" – http://bit.ly/GA2Fp #prodmgmt
@Lynn and @TrulyCrankyMarketer
Thanks for the comments. I think it is very difficult for people who have not worked in Marketing with PMs to understand the issues.
Some people are good communicators, but there are a lot of problems that need to be resolved. Creating standard documents and signoffs is certainly a good approach. Part of the problem, and I say this having been a PM, is that a lot of PMs don’t understand who they need to communicate with and what those people need from them because they don’t understand what those other people do. Those same PMs also don’t see the big picture of the business and what it needs to take products and releases to market.
Comments like the one from “ME” – “Anyway let’s face it – Product managers don’t really need to give a hoot what marketing thinks” – indicate to me that this person is part of the problem that plagues so many companies. And then these same people expect people to listen to them???
@Hakan
The problem goes both ways. When outsiders ask product management and they don’t respond or tell people they are too busy, what message does that send out?
There are real organizational problems to solve…and at the root of a lot of it is different departments having different goals. Marketing wants good product delivered on time, but is not measured on that. So when PM is to busy getting a release out – which is part of what they are measured on – and doesn’t communicate or work with the launch team, what should the launch team to do? They’re measured on getting the launch complete, and with or without the PM.
I totally agree with your points about working together, communicating early and often in clear ways. That would solve major parts of the problem.
Thanks for the comment.
@gander
As I read your comments I realized there’s a fifth category of people that I didn’t include in my chart. That category is “Dumbass Dorks” and congratulations, you are in that group.
The fact that you say:
“It is also telling that the Cranky Marketer is more worried about the big market research boys stealing his/her 4 quadrant model. Sheesh, get over yourself.”
shows you can’t distinguish reality from fiction! Do you seriously think that any research firm would appropriate a quadrant that openly calls one group “assholes” or that I think this quadrant is something that an analyst firm would actually consider using?
Me coveting this quadrant is there for effect. Seriously….did anyone else reading this think I was serious about coveting this quadrant and wanting royalties?
Secondly your link is sooooo original and witty. Woot woot!!! I guess that shows how creative and smart you are given all that education in physics and engineering and Maxwell’s equations you have.
BTW, if you actually read what I wrote and tried to understand it, as opposed to being mesmerized into believing every single word was literally true, you’d have realized that nowhere did I saw anything like I want people to bring me, on a silver platter, all the information I might need.
Let me explain the last part of the post for clarity…it’s a request to Product Managers to engage with Marketing early in the process and not do a brain dump late in the cycle and expect every to “get it”.
This is not only a problem for Marketing, but for SEs, Sales, Consultants, Telesales, Support and anyone else who needs to learn and understand what is being release, why it’s being release, what is not being release, and why not, why the release is important, valuable etc.
As Hakan wrote:
You need a clean, simple way to convey knowledge, you need to align members early and often, and ultimately you need a team that is willing to work together on important matters.
I’m in total agreement with that.
@The Cranky Marketer
I guess that the sarcasm of my comment on your “quadrant” missed you. It was a childish comment by you (the market researchers), and I guess I fed the troll. My bad.
Adding a fifth quadrant, “Dumbass Dorks” Nice touch as well.
I guess I am just blessed by being both the product manager, and the product marketer. Perhaps working for companies that do not differentiate between these roles has a blessing in disguise.
FWIW, I am all on board with Hakan, and the communicate early, communicate often. However, the team members (and this would include Product marketing) need to be responsible for showing up at the weekly (or more often meetings) and be prepared to contribute.
I find too often that until you are approaching FCS, the other players at the table are either absent, or not paying attention. You seem to think that just by engaging people early in the process, all will be bliss. We have a well defined product life cycle, and starting in the alpha stage is where the actions begin for the “marketing” group (when I begin to engage the communications group).
I still stand by my assertion that you wouldn’t last a month in my organization.
Other than that, we are going to have to agree to disagree.
BTW, it’s too bad the CrankyPM biased the readers of the post with her prologue.
I would have liked to have seen the comments without that prologue.
And where’s Paco? On vacation? I was looking forward to his feedback.
I think most of the problems come from poor communication skills, listening, understanding and being organized. When I work in large companies, I notice that product managers are not good about identifying what they need from marketing and sales people in terms that they understand, and they wonder why they don’t get the info they need.
When I worked in competitive intelligence, I was invited to numerous product manager’s meetings. They were so poorly organized that I made them tell me the agenda before I would attend and did them (and me) a big favor!
The Product Manager Quadrant by the Cranky Marketer : http://is.gd/1HIS7 (via @crankypm )
RT @sridharo: The Product Manager Quadrant by the Cranky Marketer : http://is.gd/1HIS7 (via @crankypm )
RT @sridharo: The Product Manager Quadrant by the Cranky Marketer : http://is.gd/1HIS7 (via @crankypm )
So I think that the Cranky Marketer makes some good points – at different points in my career I’ve probably occupied each of the four quadrants (at least I hope I’ve been an “Angle” at some time). The real question is not who’s right or who’s wrong, but rather how to fix the problem.
Yes, yes – better communication will go a long way, but who has the time? Ultimately it’s got to come down to motivation on both sides – what’s in it for me. Marketing needs products to be a success because that’s what they get graded on. PM’s need THEIR product to be a success because that’s what they live and die by.
Setting up a process where both parties exchange information on a regular basis is the first step in solving this problem. Can anyone say lunch date? Pick a way to make it happen and the problem can start to fade away…
- Dr. Jim Anderson
The Accidental PM Blog
“Home Of The Billion Dollar Product Manager”
Subscribe to The Accidental Product Manager Newsletter now: Click Here!
MISFITS (as in people) = have little knowledge of anything aside from their own opinions… http://bit.ly/19AFoG
Jim,
Would that be “Angle” or “Angel”? :-)
Sgt. Angle, I presume…
… actually I was thinking of Angels with Angles. Sorta a heavenly protractor thing…
BTW: the first person who comes up with a spell checker that actually knows what you REALLY are trying to spell instead of blindly accepting correctly spelled incorrect words will have me as a lifetime customer!
- Dr. Jim Anderson
The Accidental PM Blog
“Home Of The Billion Dollar Product Manager”
Subscribe to The Accidental Product Manager Newsletter now: Click Here!
Best comment from Hakan: “You need a clean, simple way to convey knowledge, you need to align members early and often, and ultimately you need a team that is willing to work together on important matters.” All of our petty business problems would be solved if teams were willing to improve communication & collaboration — this is the #1 concept that would improve organizational success today. And likewise, lack of communication & collaboration is the #1 barrier to achieving success. I guarantee that, for every company where several teams are not collaborating or communicating, the person at the top is either unwilling to take steps to encourage good behavior among his/her employees, or is modeling bad behavior for everyone to see and to perpetuate.
@A truly cranky marketer
I find your first post rather humorous because it is essentially the problem people have with marketing.
Then myself and other attendees (support, training, legal, etc) start to ask questions, and THEN AND ONLY THEN is information meted out in careful measure. Such important topics are: who is going to sell it, what is the ideal market, who are the competitors, what are the key value props for this shiny new toy.
I am not firmly on either side of this argument (all communication is terrible communication) but why the emphasis on THEN AND ONLY THEN? You are basically saying “My questions only get answered when I ask them.” Well of course, it would be lovely to arrive at a meeting and have someone hand you a little packet titled “Everything marketing needs to know to do their job” but maybe the PM isn’t an expert in what questions a marketer will have.
Instead of getting our panties in a collective knot, why don’t we all sit down and write out some very simple, very short notes on what we expect from one another on a project? If your questions are always generally the same, why not write them up and send them as soon as you see the meeting on the schedule? Do you expect the PM to become a marketing expert or even to memorize your standard list of questions?
People constantly have unstated expectations from one another. Why? If you want something from someone, tell them. The ol’ “if you don’t know what’s wrong, I’m not going to tell you” syndrome is the most childish, self-destructive behavior I can imagine.
@casual observer: We have a new rule for our program meetings. Each group comes with one slide, and it lists what they need to move forward.
The meetings are smooth, the actions are always direct and easy to grasp, and everyone gets their part and moves on.
Your first paragraph after the quote shows why this work, at least for us.
You’re kind of assuming marketing thinks they need any help or input. Sure, they may want you to review the 2 page data sheet their professional writer took 6 months to write but do they want your input on go to market strategy? The marketing teams I have worked with have been full of great people but pretty ivory tower in outlook. I’m just saying.
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